Deaf and Hard of Hearing families push for access

Rainy Day Recess, Episode 38

See our Show Notes

Christie Robertson: Welcome to Rainy Day Recess, where we study and discuss Seattle Public Schools. I'm Christie Robertson, and today I am thrilled to welcome someone new to the podcast – Cherylynne Crowther. Cherylynne is a longtime advocate with deep roots in the special education community. Her 20-year-old is currently in Bridges, the transition program in Seattle Public Schools. She's a former president of the Seattle Special Education PTSA, and the founder of Liberate Disability, a community-based resource that helps families navigate special education systems. She is joining our team to cover education issues related to disability and accessibility in Seattle Public Schools.

So after all that, Cherylynne, welcome to Rainy Day Recess.

Cherylynne Crowther: Thanks, Christie. I'm really glad to be here. I spent years working on these issues from the inside as a parent, and then as an advocate for systems change because I've seen how the systems can fail students and parents. I'm excited to shine more light on the experiences that often go overlooked.

Christie Robertson: So Cherylynne, Jasmine and I have been talking about the concept of sort of a special education correspondent for a long time because we know that there are so many issues to cover. And you and I and Jasmine have all agreed that our goal here is to cover disability-related issues for a general audience.

Cherylynne Crowther: Right, whether or not you have a student with a disability, understanding how special education works and how it works in Seattle Public Schools gives you context. I grew up in the era of the short bus arriving, unloading, and then I never saw those students again. I don't want anything like that for all of us.

Christie Robertson: Yes. And I think that we all agree that a community that involves all of our kids is going to  set our kids up for a better future.

Cherylynne Crowther: Agreed.

Christie Robertson: So glad to have you Cherylynne, and you are diving in right away to cover a story that's been building for years and is really coming to a head right now. And that is: how Deaf and Hard of Hearing – DHH – families have been repeatedly excluded from decisions that affect them. So take it away, Cherylynne.

History of Exclusion

Cherylynne Crowther: Well, the district has a long history of failing to include the DHH community in schools, in the school community, and at school board meetings. For years, DHH advocates have come to Special Education PTSA meetings to talk about these issues, and they've been advocating to the board and the district as well.

Christie Robertson: And it feels like things have been coming more and more to public attention just in the last month or two.

Cherylynne Crowther: Yeah, that's right. As discussions around the enrollment choice process, already a contentious issue, have gotten heated, deaf, and hard of hearing, parents have pushed to join in because they are facing two specific problems. 

First, their hearing kids – their Children of Deaf Adults, known as CODAs – are not given any preference to the only school that serves elementary- and middle-school aged kids. They’re not given any enrollment preference at TOPS K-8. 

Second, they're being shut out of the conversations about it.

Christie Robertson: Totally. And at the April 23rd school board meeting, the community showed up in force. There was really powerful testimony from like four or five Deaf and Hard of Hearing community individuals, and it looked... it really seemed like the board and the rest of the community was paying attention.

Cherylynne Crowther: Paying attention, but not necessarily listening, because they messed up. The ASL interpreters were booked until 9:00 PM. Right after they left, the board took up the enrollment issue, just the issue the DHH families came for. 

Christie Robertson: And then at the same meeting, a parent who had to testify remotely ended up hiring their own interpreter. Because there's no way for someone who signs to access the meeting visually unless they're physically in the room. 

Cherylynne Crowther: To jump into the next discussion about enrollment, the community engagement session on May 7th, DHH parents showed up ready to connect. Guess what? This time there weren't any ASL interpreters. And the DHH families left altogether.

Christie Robertson: Yes, they had to walk out of the meeting. President Topp did apologize at the meeting, but of course, deaf families couldn't even access the apology about the lack of access.

Cherylynne Crowther: The Seattle Council PTSA, called it out in an open letter titled "To Whom Are You Apologizing?"

Christie Robertson: And the Seattle Times covered it too. Both articles pointed out that families have been asking for really basic access for years. 

In a follow-up conversation with parent and advocate, Laura Gramer, she said, “One of my children struggled in 5th grade... because he did not have an interpreter most of the year (it was in HIS IEP!!!) and YES, I acted on this.  It was a real problem.” Cherylynne, can you even imagine watching your kid go through that at school every day? And that's just a story from a prominent advocate. So imagine all of the parents who haven't been able to bring their stories forward.

Cherylynne Crowther: Yes as advocates go, Laura Gramer, does a lot of work.

It's frustrating to see what's going on, and it's been that case for years.

• 11 years ago, in 2014, a deaf parent sued the district over the same interpreter issue. It took years of fighting to win, but as we've seen that didn't improve interpretation.
• Four years ago, in 2021, Deaf and Hard of Hearing families filed a federal civil rights complaint because TOPS K-8 had no visual alarms, no visual emergency alarms.

Christie Robertson: I just, I'm going to just interject here, because when I asked people, “so what is the system?” I remember them saying that they have a system that, like, relies on the hearing kids, or hearing adults, to tell others that the alarm is going off!

Cherylynne Crowther: It sounds ridiculous. And then, you know, it's reality, right?

Christie Robertson: Yep.

Cherylynne Crowther: So they did go through this federal civil rights complaint. The district promised alarms would be installed by fall of 2023. Alarm installation started this month, almost two full school years late.

Christie Robertson: And we only know about that installation because somebody in the community told us; I haven't been able to find anything about this on the district's website. And it's two years late for basic safety equipment and just at the particular school that's focused on Deaf and Hard of Hearing kids and families.

And we'll link to the case references in our show notes.

Enrollment Barriers

Christie Robertson: Let's dig more into the enrollment issues that Deaf and Hard of Hearing families have been raising. We covered some of the broader issues around school choice and enrollment in our previous Substack post.

Cherylynne Crowther: The enrollment issue comes down to this. The one elementary school staffed and prepared for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing  parents is not available to their children who hear- those CODAs, Children of Deaf Adults. The TOPS K-8 staff are experienced in working with Deaf families. And for DHH parents of CODAs, that means they are more likely to be able to get interpreter access and engage fully in their child's education. 

TOPS K-8 is also important for hearing parents who have a Deaf child. They want their kid to have ASL, Deaf peers and DHH role models.

Christie Robertson: And what they've been being told all this time is: “you can't get in.”

Cherylynne Crowther: Right. There's no priority in the enrollment process for CODAs and no recognition that families need access to a DHH program in school, whether or not their child is Deaf/Hard of Hearing. 

Christie Robertson: Will Roach was one of the parents who testified at the April school board meeting. Speaking through an interpreter, he explained how important it is for his child to be in a place where communication is accessible.

Will Roach: I'm asking for priority enrollment for my CODA child in Seattle Public Schools with a Deaf and Hard of Hearing program such as TOPS. This supports their first language, which is American Sign Language, connection to Deaf and Hard of Hearing peers, and allows me to stay actively involved in their education.

Cherylynne Crowther: Later in that same meeting, Superintendent Jones was asked about the enrollment priority for CODAs – Children of Deaf Adults. He pointed to policy 3130 and said, 

Superintendent Jones: I believe 3130 does speak to that when it talks about, “...unless the school designated by a student's home address does not have the appropriate services for the students' needs.” So it addresses that.

Christie Robertson: We wanted to hear more directly from parents navigating the system, and we are really grateful that Laura Gramer and Patrick Conway took the time to follow up with Rainy Day Recess as we prepared for this episode, both our Deaf parents and longtime advocates for Deaf and Hard of Hearing education.

Speaking specifically to this issue, they both said there is no actual policy that specifically prioritizes enrollment of kids of DHH adults at schools that have DHH programs. They said they asked enrollment directly the response was, “There is no mechanism.”

Cherylynne Crowther: That just makes me so mad.

Christie Robertson: I know. I think one of the things that frustrates me the most in covering the school district is when staff are telling the school board one thing, but you can talk to parents on the ground and they clearly tell you that is not what's going on.

Cherylynne Crowther: 100%. So yeah, outside of the board meeting, district staff told DHH parents, “there is no mechanism”. And that's what families are asking for- a mechanism for kids of DHH adults who can hear to be placed at DHH program schools like TOPS. Again, access to interpreters, staff fluent in ASL, devices, peer connections, and community for kids and their parents.

Christie Robertson: Gramer also emphasized that keeping TOPS a K-8 and allowing the entire DHH community access helps ensure that limited resources aren't stretched even thinner. Because hiring interpreters has always been something SPS has been behind on.

Cherylynne Crowther: Is there precedent for what Gramer's asking about? What do other districts do?

Christie Robertson: So she pointed to Tacoma and Edmonds. They both prioritize DHH families for their program schools. And then Puyallup has gone a step further. They have an actual ASL/English Dual Language Program. I just think that's so cool. We will link to information about these programs.

Cherylynne Crowther: Yeah, I agree with you. A dual language ASL program is something the families here have been asking for for years. Kind of interesting to see other districts putting it in place. And at the May 14th board meeting, the most recent, there was a moment of hope we'll mention later. 

Christie Robertson: Yeah, which generated a lot of excitement. But still, families who have been advocating for years are wary. And until there's actual changes to policy or practice, they are not celebrating.

Access and Accountability

Christie Robertson: So if you just looked at the district's policies, you might think that the issues being raised by DHH families had already been taken care of.

Cherylynne Crowther: Sure. I mean, on paper, Seattle has impressive policies. Policy 0010, which talks about safe and welcoming schools. That one says the district will identify barriers and meet student needs “with the ultimate goal of eliminating any opportunity gaps.”

Christie Robertson: And there's Policy 0030, the Educational and Racial Equity Policy. It calls for “systems and materials that reflect students' diversity, including disability and language.”

Cherylynne Crowther: And then let's go to Policy 4218 about language access. It says, “the district will provide effective communication for families who are Deaf, Deafblind, Blind, Hard of Hearing, or who need other communication assistance according to Policy 4205.”

Christie Robertson: And Policy 4205 is the one that deals specifically with accessibility. It says “the district will provide communication that's as effective for people with disabilities as it is for non-disabled people.” That's a strong statement. It also says that they'll offer information on how to request aids and services on the website at no cost and in accessible formats.

Cherylynne Crowther: Plenty of policies and a lot of promises. When we went and looked for information on the district website, seattleschools.org, no luck. The district doesn't post the interpretation request form publicly. There's no link to it from enrollment pages, board meeting notices, or family facing event pages.

Christie Robertson: Where we found it was instead buried in a document called Superintendent Procedure 4218SP. It says “families can request interpretation at any time”, and then it lists what kind of information you need to provide when you request it and who you need to request it from. But this is in a PDF buried on the district's website. You have to know where to look and that the form even exists in the first place.

Cherylynne Crowther: Here's Deaf parent, Katie Roberts speaking through an interpreter describing her experience trying to find information about interpretive services. 

Katie Roberts: Once my son was going into kindergarten, I was wondering how I would find interpreter services. So I went onto the website. And on the search bar, I searched “deaf” and I didn't see any results for interpreters. I searched “ASL”. Again, no results. So I tried for an “IEP” search, and I was able to find a result for Deaf students. Do you guys not consider Deaf parents as part of the community? Do you not have readily available services and guides and things for deaf parents?

Christie Robertson: Roberts ended up having her wife act as interpreter for a parent teacher conference. That is not what her role is supposed to be in that meeting.

Cherylynne Crowther: Taking it further in terms of expanding roles. She even offered to create a flyer to help other Deaf parents navigate the system. And that's what it's come to - families are making their own workarounds just to get basic access. That's a large gap to close.

Christie Robertson: . So while the policies sound good, what's actually happening on the ground tells a very different story. Patrick Conway put it this way, speaking through an interpreter in his April testimony.

Patrick Conway: We don't need a big study to tell us why we don't feel like we're being heard. You don't know what it feels like to have your children grow up speaking a different language. You don't know what it feels like to be told that someone else knows better than you about the access means.

Cherylynne Crowther: Until that gap between what's promised and what's practiced gets closed, families will stay left out of the system.  DHH families are urging SPS to ensure both access and inclusion to match words with action.

What needs to change

Christie Robertson: So. We've talked a lot about the concerns raised by DHH families. But the same families have also been offering really concrete solutions. They've told us exactly what needs to change.

Cherylynne Crowther: Here's what the families are asking for:

1. Interpreter access that's automatic, consistent, and easy to request
2. Enrollment policy changes that prioritize inclusion of those Children of Deaf Adults – CODAs
3. Staffing and professional development in Deaf education and ASL. 
4. Real accountability, including follow through on past commitments and a DHH task force.
5. Having a clearly designated 504 ADA coordinator-  Americans with Disability Act coordinator for the whole community, including adults who access Seattle public school spaces. 

Christie Robertson: We've talked a little bit through most of these, but let's talk about number five.

Cherylynne Crowther: Students need accommodations and accessibility. Parents need accommodations and accessibility.

Christie Robertson: Sharon Lewis is listed as the “504 coordinator” on one SPS webpage and the “504 student coordinator” on another page.

Cherylynne Crowther: And that's that confusing part. Parents have ADA needs as well. So do parents contact Sharon Lewis? Do they not contact her? Who do they contact?

Christie Robertson: SCPTSA Co-president, Sam Fogg told us that she's been told on many occasions that Sharon only handles student needs. I looked around to see who might be managing just accessibility of Seattle Public Schools in general. You know, any building is going to need to deal with people coming into their building who are disabled. For example, for disabled parents or other adults. I couldn't really find anything. The Accessibility page is just about website and document accessibility.

Cherylynne Crowther: This is where I always come to “sigh”, in this point of these kind of conversations.

Let's talk about the DHH task force ask. And that is really about long-term structural change. Create a DHH task force. Bring Deaf and Hard of Hearing families and advocates to the table. Not just for feedback, but to help lead the work.

Christie Robertson: The disability community always says, “nothing about us without us.” When people who are outside of a community try to design systems for the community, they just guess wrong. And they might spend a whole lot of money and a whole lot of time on things that aren't going to work. You need to involve the people who are going to be experiencing the changes that you're going to  make.

So looking back on the last couple months, Cherylynne, do you think things have started to shift? I feel like there've been some signs of movement at the May school board meeting.

Cherylynne Crowther: Well, the part where board President Gina Topp apologized at that community engagement meeting. She apologized verbally. But she did apologize. And that's, that's something I hadn't seen. 

Christie Robertson: And they followed up with an email that was signed by both her and Superintendent Brent Jones.

Cherylynne Crowther: That was bigger even than just saying it in that small group, to actually go on the record. 

Christie Robertson: Yep.

Cherylynne Crowther: Topp has restated the district's commitment to providing ASL interpretation at all future board meetings and engagement sessions.

Christie Robertson: And from what I can tell, she seems to be serious about it. There was a special board meeting the day before that regular meeting, and they had ASL interpreters there as well. That's unusual. I have never seen an interpreter at a meeting like that. And then at the general meeting, interpreters were there. President Topp said that the meeting would end before 9:00 PM because that's when the interpreters were contracted until, and they adjourned at 8:56 PM.

Cherylynne Crowther: That's great. That is the kind of action that would be culture change. But we're a big district, and turning the ship is kind of slow. 

For the Special Education PTSA, we have ASL provided every general membership meeting. So every month when we're talking with people and sharing information, we have ASL. Because we're recording it, that means that someone can watch it..

At this meeting, several of the DHH family members and allies showed up to testify and their message was clear. This is an opportunity, but only if the district follows through. 

Christie Robertson: We heard from Kaitlin Winterstein. She actually went through SPS’s DHH programs herself. And now she's an audiologist. 

Kaitlin Winterstein: There needs to be an ADA coordinator. What if the individual had vision differences or mobility issues? Having training, a more clear system for requesting ADA accommodations, trainings for staff, which we're required to do every October regarding implementing ADA/Section 504 at the school level and at the district level.

Cherylynne Crowther: Elsa Jones, another SPS graduate, and a strong local DeafBlind advocate reminded everyone that DHH Pathway schools aren't the only issue. Deaf and Hard of Hearing families need safety and access across the district.

Elsa Jones: DHH families aren't just in pathway schools. We're everywhere. My children are CODAs. They're not deaf. I am. And yet every building in our district doesn't have an emergency system that's accessible to all. We still don't account for Deafblind students or parents. And that's not a minor oversight. It's a safety risk and a civil rights risk. “Nothing about us without us” must be more than a slogan. It must be a policy. It must be a practice. It must be part of how this district operates. Not a box to check when it's convenient. We've waited long enough. Thank you.

Christie Robertson: That line that she says "Nothing about us without us must be more than a slogan. It must be a policy. It must be a practice. It must be part of how the district operates." That's really powerful, and I think if we pay attention to that mindset here, it will certainly benefit other disabled folks, and others across all areas of our community.

Cherylynne Crowther: Yeah, the “nothing about us without us” is true for a lot of the intersectionality that goes on in our community that we don't follow up on. 

Christie Robertson: Oh yeah, it would be a real mindset shift for SPS that would benefit a lot of our planning, I think. 

Cherylynne Crowther: Then Susanna Ballastracci, who works as a speech language pathologist in the district, shared this message from Laura Gramer.

Susannah Balestracci: I say with respect that we have been offered many apologies as well as listening sessions over the course of the past 10 years. Personally, I'm leery and tired of both. I seek something more productive with a purpose that yields positive and sustainable outcomes for DHH families and students. For example, a task force that meets one to three times per year to offer solutions to pressing problems for DHH people such as ADA access, inclusion, and anti-ableist and anti-audist initiatives.

The DHH community would also like to work in collaboration with SPS administration to establish a dual language program at TOPS for American Sign Language and English, as bilingual education is best practice for students with hearing differences.

Christie Robertson: And then here was maybe the most exciting part of the meeting. Associate Superintendent Rocky Torres-Morales responded with big news about potential program developments.

Rocky Torres-Morales: We are in the initial stages of planning through that and thinking what does this mean? Up to and including an ASL dual language option. More to come on that, but I want to just make sure that we're putting that out there because it's something that is in process and something that is important for our community.

Cherylynne Crowther: So yes, some things are happening. Or being talked about happening. This is what our progress is measured by – little increments. But families have seen these promises before. There has to be follow through,

Christie Robertson: Before we wrap, we wanna talk a little bit about allyship. Because when some families are excluded, it impacts all of us.

Cherylynne Crowther: Right. When we asked DHH advocates what allies could do to help, they said this: “when Deaf or Hard of Hearing families walk out because a meeting isn't accessible, walk out with them.”

Christie Robertson: Also, “if something's not accessible, don't just keep going like it's business as usual.” Pause the meeting, acknowledge it, make space for it to be fixed.

Cherylynne Crowther: And that actually happened at the May board meeting. When an access issue came up, President Topp paused the meeting until the problem was resolved. And it made a difference. That needs to become standard practice.

Christie Robertson: Yeah, that really shows people that you value their participation and that they're full members of the community. Another thing that you can do as an ally is to share the demands that the advocates shared with us. Talk to your PTSA, email the board, ask what's happening with interpreter access, with the enrollment policy, with the visual alarms, with that potential dual language program, with a DHH task force, et cetera.

Cherylynne Crowther: Agreed, agreed and agreed. The more all of us recognize issues and demand change, the better it is for all of us. You know, open captioning, which we use all the time now. 

Christie Robertson: Mm-hmm. 

Cherylynne Crowther: It came about because of hard fought advocacy by the Deaf and Hard of Hearing community. And it benefited everyone else. 

Christie Robertson: I was thinking of the classic example is the curb cuts, which were put there for wheelchairs, but you know, bicyclists use them, strollers use them. It turns out to just be a good idea. 

Cherylynne Crowther: Don't assume these issues don't affect your school community, just because no one's raised them yet. Sometimes people haven't spoken up because they don't feel safe or simply because they've been ignored too many times.

Christie Robertson: It really struck me, Sam Sanders' testimony that he just gave up. Here he is speaking through an interpreter at the April school board meeting.

Sam Sanders: I have four children. Three are going through the Seattle Public School system now. And when I started, we had a very hard time getting interpreters for family meetings, concerts, plays, school events. And now, I feel like I've given up. I haven't bothered with getting interpreters, because there's a lot of work and it's not yielding any results.

Cherylynne Crowther: Access is a shared responsibility. Part of it is just even becoming aware of it. When I first learned at a PTSA meeting where Gramer came in and was saying, we don't have visual emergency alert systems, it was as if a light went off. I'm like, they can't get out. Those kids aren't safe!

Christie Robertson: Mm-hmm. 

Cherylynne Crowther: And I just know that's wrong. It's part of making schools better for everyone.

Conclusion

Christie Robertson: Hopefully this information is helpful to you in advocating for DHH families and others. And I just want to thank everyone who shared their stories and their testimony and has gone through the hurdles to do that. And specifically to Laura Gramer, Patrick Conway, and Sam Fogg for the follow-up conversations about these issues.

And, thank you Cherylynne for joining us and helping bring these issues to light. 

Cherylynne Crowther: Thanks, Christie. I really am glad to be here. These conversations matter and so does what happens next.

Christie Robertson: You can find transcripts and show notes on RainyDayRecess.org, and you can follow us on Substack and BlueSky for updates between episodes. And if you value this reporting, please consider supporting our work through a donation on our website or on Patreon.

Cherylynne Crowther: If this episode helped you understand something new, talk about it, share it, bring it up with friends, bring it up with your teachers. Bring it up with your students or your kids. Talk about it in your school community. Bring it up at your next PTSA meeting.

Christie Robertson: Keep asking who's being left out and what would it take to change that?

Stay curious, stay cozy, and we'll see you next time on Rainy Day Recess.